Got the book but haven’t read it yet.

Some reasons I think men give up on church …

Some of our songs are hopeless for men eg Darling of heaven – I am never singing that!

Too much touchy feely stuff that doesn’t relate to men – men are emotional but often express it in diff ways to women

Not enough hands on practical involvement

Lack of men only groups

& as you said – lack of risk, playing it safe

Just a few random thoughts

John Finkeldes last blog post..Subiaco premiers again

Jermayn, this is shows excellent discernment on your part. It’s a huge issue which, sadly, many are ignoring.

One of the reasons men don’t attend church is because they are less tolerant (than women) of useless preaching, and they tend to be put off when they discern hypocrisy (women may discern it too, but they are usually more forgiving).

Another reason may be because society has taught that women don’t need men, and the church hasn’t rebuked that lie. If men were taught that they are needed, that their wives and children depend upon them to lead, teach, and provide, then they would be more interested in learning from biblical preaching which would teach them how to do these things appropriately.

Above all, the preacher in the pulpit must be a man, and he must exercise a masculine ministry.

I’m not saying that women can’t speak the gospel, but when it comes to pastor/minister/bishop/elder (whatever term you want to use), the Bible is clear – men only!

The reason is simple – can a woman be the husband of one wife? (1 Tim 3:2; Tit 1:6).

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Sounds great looking forward to it ! this is really nice mate! good job! Thanx!

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OK guys my turn

@ Armen – male pastors/elders/bishiops cos of 1 Tim 3:2 – actually Jesus would fail to qualify if you applied this!?!?! As for Paul himself … I think your exegesis lacks contextual understanding

@ Trev – interestingly in Australia the rise of Christian education in the last 20+years has been immense – strangely we still see a crisis amongst young adults departing church. So I’d question your theory. On entertainment I don’t know any pastor who is focussed on entertaining people as against leading them into connection with God & others.

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John,

1. Christian Education has increased in Australia. However, according to NCLS 80% of our children are still sent to the state for their education. The current education system, state based and controlled, was fought tooth and nail by men like Bishop Broughton in the 19th century (see Clark’s history of Australia).

Now, even if Christian education has increased exponentially the majority of children go to Caesar for their education. So why are we surprised when they come back as Romans?

Let’s grant you further grace, say all Christians educate their children in a Christian School and we still have the same problem. Does this mean we abandon the wisdom and truth of the Bible? Do we ignore the injunction to train our children in the way they should go, instructing them all of the time in a Biblical worldview, teaching them to honor God in all things and preparing them as arrows in the hands of a warrior? We would be foolish to think the Biblical mandate is wrong. Rather, in our sinfulness we have failed.

As fathers, we need to get on our knees and repent before God, take our children out of schools and begin to walk with them in the way…when we rise up, during the day and when we lie down.

For too long too many Christian parents have relegated their children’s “secular” education to the state and their “religious” education to the Sunday School. The Bible does not allow these positions and that is why many (NCLS say 95% of 15 y/o people from Christian homes) walk away from the faith every year.

The crisis is still here because we now want trained professionals to do our God ordained tasks as father and mother. We want the “Christian” teacher (who often holds to the view that we are merely higher evolved animals) and Sunday School Teacher (who is often in there teens or has no children of their own) to disciple our children. And we wonder why there is a problem.

I would argue that what I am saying is not a theory but a simple reading of God’s Word and how to apply it like many of God’s people have for centuries.

Better Youth Church Programs will not fix the problem, parents on their knees in prayer and teaching their children will be a start.

Education is one part of the solution…not all of it. Repentance and faithful obedience is needed in many areas of life. Also, if we faithfully apply God’s Word we may only see changes in the next generation or later – for He curses up to 4 generations of those who turn their back on His Word.

I don’t know, maybe the feminist lie that you can have a full time career and family has been bought. You can’t. The most glorious calling for a woman is motherhood and it is shunned today. Or maybe people (like I used to) would prefer to be financially secure with two incomes than to have mum stay home with the children?

I don’t know any pastor who intentionally moves towards an entertainment show for worship. Why? Because I do not know their hearts (Deut 29:29) and am not that sinical!! But the question over liturgy is interesting. In my limited experience most pastors do not critically evaluate their liturgy (using the Bible as their only standard). Thus, we see many well meaning Churches become seeker friendly entertainment amphitheatres!

My point 1 in post #8 quoted Luke 6:46, it should have been Luke 6:40.

2. Your comments to Armen. I am not speaking for him but couldn’t resist comenting!

I am not sure if you advocate the ordination of women? It seems like the under current to your comment.

If Christ is the head of His Church and the Church is His bride, Christ is masculine and the church feminine. The minister (bishop, elder etc.) is Christ’s representative to the Church. So, the minister represents the masculine Christ and the Church represents the feminine bride. This analogy of husband and wife breaks down as soon as you accept female ministers (elders etc).

To say that Jesus (or Paul for that matter)would not qualify if we actually used Scripture (i.e. 1 Tim. 3:2) is absurd! If we push the previous analogy, Jesus has one bride! Also, by stating you must be the husband of one wife does not by neccessity mean you must have a wife! Contextually the “one wife” phrase is refering to the problem of polygamy in first century Judaism, something Jesus highlighted as sinful. To stretch this to mean a man must have a wife is to say Paul was not consistent. He did say to the Corinthians that in that time of great tribulation that it was better not to take a wife.

I believe all of the qualifications for elder (etc) are clearly speaking towards men not women. To say we must apply these clear qualifications ad hoc is to deny the authority of the Scriptures. It also flies in the face of 1900 years of orthodox understanding.

I tend to agree. One of my biggest ‘issues’ with the church world is the music of today. Yesterdays worship music was all about God, the Blood, Jesus, the Holy Spirit etc but todays? Its all about me, I, we etc..

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i have just read through your posts and found it very interesting.

I can only speak from my experience as a woman in regards to men and their role. The devil hates marriage and all of us and he will seek to destroy it and us anyway he can. i have seen a two fold shift- the woman rising up and the men submitting. It has not been a one way affair, the woman could not take the lead if the man remained the head. This goes back (in our situation) to the way we were raised as children. My family did not know God and both my parents were marraied 3 times, with lots of verbal and physical abuse. Hence we learnt how to surrive, repair cars, get water etc without a man around. Mum and us children were often left to fend for ourselves. This has made me a strong woman, which is OK and not an issue is if it is contained within a biblical framework. My husband came from a “christian” home where the father had undiagnosed mental health issues, his dad never taught him anything, just yelled at him. Hence his mum was their to pick up the pieces and made a woosy man- not his fault though. I longed for him to be the “head” of the home and he longed to lead, we just didnt know what was right and what was wrong, we had no teaching.
So we have had a hard time knowing what the biblical model was as not many these days teach it, and it is most definatly not taught in most churches. Praise God, he bought us into a might church where we have been show the biblical model and it has been hard at times but we are constantly growing into our biblical roles and loving it. Our whole family has blossomed from this change.
The scripture teaches us to “train up a child” that includes the roles and functions of a husband and wife, if we get it right at this level then the next generatin will keep perpetuating it and we will see change.

If reference to songs, you can go to http://www.sharesong.org and find songs for free to use in a church setting. they have a great variety and many “warfare” type songs.

In regards to “us being the “bride” read revelations 21:9 onwards. Do cross references.